Jeremy Miller left his role of pastoring a financially stable church to lead a fiscally floundering bible college.

Jeffrey Lucas Jr and Jeremy discuss his career leap, God’s inexplicable provision, and the humility it takes to serve the church and follow Jesus.


The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill

Is Faithfulness Enough?

Interview w/ Jeremy Miller- Transcript

[00:00:00] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Well, welcome to the Christian money podcast. The podcast that helps you get your money outta your grubby little fingers and on to the mission that God has for your life. I’m your host, Jeffrey Lucas, Jr. Pastor author and recovering lover of money. And today I am on the beautiful campus of Rosedale Bible college.

[00:00:19] I’m here with the president, Jeremy Miller, Jeremy. Thanks so much for being on the show today.

[00:00:24] Jeremy Miller: Jeff, it’s a treat. I appreciate you inviting me on,

[00:00:26] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Hey, it’s a treat, getting to use your equipment. I had a technological failure and you are the only podcast guest who could offer their studio to make things happen. So I really appreciate it.

[00:00:38] Jeremy Miller: That’s great. I’m glad when it works.

[00:00:40] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Yeah, well I’m glad that it now works so well. Hey, what we do on this podcast, Jeremy, is we just interview people who take their faith seriously and in their finances specifically. And I know you have a couple of really good stories that you’ve shared with me about just, making crazy financial decisions because you’re following Christ.

[00:01:00] So I want to get into those but one of the things I just thought we’d start with is why don’t you tell us a little bit about Rosedale Bible college and your role with them?

[00:01:08] Jeremy Miller: Yeah,

[00:01:09] so. This is my fifth academic year that I’ve served as president here. So headed into that. So I’ve been here four complete years and.

[00:01:19] Rosedale Bible college is a two-year Bible college that our mission is to prepare kingdom workers. And so most of our students come here, but they come from all walks of life from all over the United States. And, you know, you hear the word Bible college, and your assumption is that most of our students go on to be pastors and missionary.

[00:01:37] So on, that’s really not the case. So, most of our students come here because they’re hungry to get grounded in their faith. And we offer enough gen EDS that, many of our students can leave here, graduate from here and then finish their bachelor’s degree somewhere else in additional two years. And then of course, I mean, some do go into vocational ministry, but.

[00:02:00] but our passion in our heart is for their preparation, wherever God’s taking them. So a lot of small businesses, you know, people leave here and begin small businesses or begin to work in the family’s business. That kind

[00:02:12] of thing. Yeah.

[00:02:13] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: So got it. And I don’t mean this condescendingly, but what does the president of a Bible college do?

[00:02:21] Jeremy Miller: You know the first thing that comes to mind is I travel a lot. So I actually do a lot of preaching in a lot of churches, but also fundraiser in the middle of a capital campaign, 6 million new dorm that we’re wanting to put up. I also talk to parents and students about why two years here is a good investment in their lives. And so it’s kind of this mash up of serving the church in a lot of different ways, teaching, preaching, recruiting, and then fundraising.

[00:02:53] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Okay. Got it. Absolutely. And so I know you’ve told me a little bit about that, that capital campaign. Have you, were you an academic guy or how does your path take you to, to being the president of a Bible college?

[00:03:05] Jeremy Miller: It’s not something I expected. No. I served as a pastor for 12 years prior to this role. And you know, it’s interesting how God leads while I was pastoring. I was actually invited to be on the board here and. And then in my headed into my last year of board services, seven-year commitment, the president here said he felt like it was time to resign and move on.

[00:03:31] And then the board approached me about transitioning into this role, which was not something I expected. We loved our church . In Northeast Ohio, and totally expected to be buried there, but that didn’t happen. And, you know, as we viewed. Where God had brought us. My primary call is to serve the church that hasn’t changed.

[00:03:54] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Yeah. That’s all of us, right?

[00:03:56] Jeremy Miller: Exactly. My passion, even as a pastor was raising up leaders and helping young people find their place and their calling and their giftedness and equip them for that. And as I considered what, the kind of ventures that I kept finding myself in as a pastor and passion to see God’s young people equipped for a very different era.

[00:04:22] I feel like the era we’re walking into as a church, it requires people to be intentional about knowing who God is. And what he’s doing beyond just sort of the, the cliches we hear tossed around in church. Right. but a clear sense of the God we serve and then how that, how that moves us forward in life and, the need for clarity, because

[00:04:50] , I would say young people, like when I came into adulthood, um, at least in the areas I lived in following Jesus was a very culturally acceptable. It’s normal. It was normal. Right. You weren’t, you didn’t lose anything by following Jesus.  Well, that’s really not the case for young people today.

[00:05:12] And I’m not saying that we’re a crazy persecuted church, all that. And I’m not saying that I’m only saying that the, the questions and the pushback, especially young people are getting from their peers is real. And it’s forcing many of them to reevaluate, well, why am I doing this thing? Yeah. And so I also think , that makes a place like Rosedale Bible college, a lot more appealing to young people.

[00:05:37] So we saw for instance in a climate where college is actively being rejected by more people. we saw a 20% enrollment growth this year.

[00:05:46] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Oh, wow.

[00:05:46] Jeremy Miller: Over last. And I do think, and that’s all on campus.

[00:05:50] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: That’s all on campus?

[00:05:51] Jeremy Miller: Right. I do think people are hungry to, to find places that will help them figure out their faith.

[00:05:58] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Yeah. Well and I think, and maybe this will take us a little bit down a rabbit trail here, but I don’t know that the church of modernity has like really offered that, right? Like we’ve offered those cliches, those platitudes

[00:06:10] Jeremy Miller: that’s right.

[00:06:11] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: And they’re, they’re just not working.

[00:06:12] Jeremy Miller: No, they’re just not working.

[00:06:14] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: And so, yeah, I think people in Rosedale Bible college, I think is, is gonna be a part of that are able to actually work out their faith with fear and trembling. And like ask hard questions.. And wrestle and be allowed to wrestle. We’re not gonna be able to answer the questions that are being asked.

[00:06:33] I think that’s amazing work that you’re doing. One of the things I was really excited about being here and talking to you for is I’ve talked to a lot of people who are called out of business out of, high powered careers into ministry, but I was really excited to talk to someone who was called out of a ministerial position.

[00:06:50] Sure. Right. not necessarily out of ministry, but out of a pastoral position. Yeah. Into Rosedale Bible college. Like I, I think there is kind of this idea around the pastor that like, once you’re there, like we’ve done it, like you’ve made the ultimate sacrifice. , you know, you have like the, the splinters of the pulpit in your hands.

[00:07:12] Yeah. Like you you’re identifying with the submarines of Jesus and there’s really nowhere else to go from there. And so how did you process this idea that. Maybe actually God’s invitation for me is to step out of yeah. The pulpit and into something. Yeah. You know, still serving the church, but, but, but into something new

[00:07:29] Jeremy Miller: that was hard, because you know, anywhere you go like that, I think that’s true for many people, unless they’re abnormally super spiritual , is to have some of your identity wrapped up in that.

[00:07:42] Yeah. And it certainly was true for me, uh, that I was a pastor. That’s what I did. And I loved that. But I also have an entrepreneurial bent and the college at the time was really at a difficult spot in its history. in fact after I resigned to our church, The next board meeting was a board meeting in which we discussed.

[00:08:18] Are we able to keep going at which a point? I was like internally panicking, looking around the room going, Hey, I just resigned from a church that I absolutely loved to come do this because I felt like we felt like God was saying, go and now we’re talking about closing down. How does that work?

[00:08:37] And what does that mean? You know, I just didn’t know.

[00:08:40] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: And then, I mean, the church balance sheet I assume was better than The

[00:08:46] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Bible colleges.

[00:08:47] Jeremy Miller: Yeah, no, actually gosh I pastored a very relatively speaking, a wealthy congregation. Okay. Not for a day in my life had I questioned, whether the church would go on, whether there was money to pay the bills.

[00:09:00] Oh, geez. It was very secure in that sense. And I didn’t, I admittedly I took that somewhat for granted cause I was a young pastor. I started when I was 25. This is the only thing I know

[00:09:09] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: exactly. Churches pay their pastors. What’s the problem? This is, this is what happens.

[00:09:13] Jeremy Miller: Right. And then to walk into a situation where that was not the case.

[00:09:18] Yeah. It was a, it was a test of faith for sure.

[00:09:21] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Yeah, I get, so how did you respond to that panic? Like. Are you instantly thinking, like I made the wrong call or are you like I’m, I’m still sure this is right, but no,

[00:09:32] Jeremy Miller: you know, I think everybody had the sense that God wasn’t finished here. Yeah.

[00:09:40] And so we weren’t closing down. Okay, but it was also apparent that the trajectory we were on had to changewhich I think was actually a gift from. God. And it forced us to clarify things at the college, our mission, our vision, the way we do things, we reevaluated everything. It forced us to, to lean into our faith on that because. I mean, it was bleak financially.

[00:10:08] Yeah. In fact, our first meeting with the staff and faculty, I looked around the room and everybody knew that this was not a secret, but people love working here. And people, people love being a part of this thing, but I looked at him and I said, listen you all know that financially it’s tough. I bought a house that I can’t afford without a job.

[00:10:30] So we need to make this work. And they all laughed. Yeah and we went forward, but God’s been really good and it’s been a fun ride.

[00:10:41] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: That’s awesome. That’s so fun. And so I, I guess, let me just skip a little bit. that kind of bleak situation right there. Yeah. You’re now you’re in this capital campaign.

[00:10:50] Jeremy Miller: Yeah. Right.

[00:10:51] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Yeah. So you’re trying to raise like a solid seven figure number. Yeah. What kind of cool things did God do between like bleak and now. Cause like that’s, we’re, we’re not going from survival. We’re going to building growth mode with, with the capital campaign.

[00:11:05] Jeremy Miller: Well, you know, it’s often in the valley that God shows you things that you need to step.

[00:11:13] In faith on. And I mean, I look back on that. I, and I’m still interpreting some of the things that happened. and God uses that time to, cultivate your own like what he needs from you to, to move forward. And so, for instance, I remember the first month sitting down with the CFO and going over to the numbers and going home and.

[00:11:39] Unable to sleep. I tossed and turned to stop. I know that feeling, man, Lord this is not happening, right. They’re outside of some miracle. This is a huge, like catastrophe

[00:11:52] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.:  that’s where I say spreadsheet says no

[00:11:54] Jeremy Miller: Yeah, exactly. And I tossed I could not sleep. And finally, I sensed the Lord saying you just need to worship.

[00:12:00] Okay. So I started thanking God for all I could think to thank him for. And pretty soon I fell asleep. Right. So next month. Same thing, pull out the spreadsheet. And it’s like, I’m reminded again of how terrible this situation is. go home, I’m tossing and turning, wondering how we’re gonna pay people, how we’re gonna, you know, it’s like all that stuff.

[00:12:19] Yeah. And, and, I felt like the Lord was saying again, Hey, you just need to worship. Okay. I got that’s way better than worries. I start thanking God for all I can think to thanking. And in, in, in that moment, that night, I felt like the Lord said, Jeremy, this is my deal. Not yours, man. That’s so hard. And if I’m gonna shut it down, there’s nothing you can do to stop it.

[00:12:39] And if it’s gonna go, then it’s mine.

[00:12:43] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: There’s nothing you can do to screw it up.

[00:12:44] Jeremy Miller: That’s right. At that point, you just be faithful. And let the chips fall where they will. That’s an important word for me because I tend to own the things that I’m a part of, right? Yeah. They they’re part of my, value.

[00:12:59] They, you know, I incorporate like all, all these things, these temptations of allowing those things to become my identity, you know, and. just remembering that this is God’s. This is not mine. Has been an incredibly important lesson. And then I’d add, we saw God move in just some incredible way.

[00:13:23] So later that year CFO comes in and he says, Jeremy, you know, this summer it’s looking like, we’re not, we’re have trouble with payroll. We’re not gonna make payroll. This is the first time this has happened. I think in his memory. All right, Lord. Well, this is yours. I mean, what are we gonna do? And I think this is like a Thursday or Friday or something and go home and come back Monday morning.

[00:13:47] And there’s a check that’s come in for $50,000, which for us was that’s a big deal. yeah. And, uh, I just thought, you know, what that check was in the mail. When the CFO told me we couldn’t make payroll. Yeah. All right. So God’s got this, he’s got us. I had, I had never contacted these, the, the family that sent us the money.

[00:14:10] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Wow.

[00:14:11] Jeremy Miller: They were just praying about where they should send this money and they felt like send it to rose tale.

[00:14:15] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Okay. So cool. I love that. Yeah.

[00:14:18] Jeremy Miller: There’s one more thing too, that I should, I should tell you about this was a. Like, this is one of those things that you hold onto, uh, later. Right. But, so, so that first semester at the end, like during about halfway through, we started a strategic planning process.

[00:14:35] Yeah. And

[00:14:36] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: those are rigorous, I’ve heard.

[00:14:37] Jeremy Miller: Oh my goodness. Yeah. And we had everybody involved, 40 days of prayer and just discernment and it was intense, but it was really good. It culminated in a meeting a week or two ahead of Christmas vacation with all the staff, faculty, several stakeholders. And we hammered out like, okay, here’s where we’re going.

[00:14:59] And here are some of the changes that we need to make. And really the focus was on how do we disciple? How do we get better at discipling young people? we’re all excited about it. And my family’s all from Kansas. So my wife and kids, and I hop in the van over Christmas, drive out to Kansas, have a great week.

[00:15:17] We’re driving back, getting ready for winter term here on campus. Yep. And on our way back down the highway, this internal panic sets in like, oh my goodness, we spent all of fall semester and we decided to disciple people. . Is that really? What’s gonna turn this college around. Yeah. That we get better at discipling people.

[00:15:40] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Wow.

[00:15:41] Jeremy Miller: Yeah. And I’m like all these fears, like what did we just spend all that time and money doing? Lord, This is the best we could come up with?

[00:15:51] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: I’m pretty sure that’s already in the red letters somewhere.

[00:15:54] Jeremy Miller: Oh my goodness. Yeah. But I mean, you know, I knew it was true and yet I’m thinking like, okay, we we’re.

[00:16:00] We’re trying to rescue a college and forgetting again, this is God’s deal, not ours. Right. Anyway, as I’m driving down the road and I’m just feeling like these waves of real, real panic, actually. Yeah. And out of the blue, I get this phone call, uh, from, from a, a friend of mine. He’s like Jeremy and, and he, I, he didn’t know.

[00:16:23] We had gone through this whole process. He’s from a whole another state. He’s a pastor in another place. Okay. He’s like Jeremy. I just had this dream last night, it was so intense. And I said, he said, I got up. And I told my wife and she’s like, well, you need to call Jeremy. And so he is like, I don’t know what this means, but I’m just calling you.

[00:16:45] I just wanna tell you this. He said, uh, last night I was dreaming and I, I, I Crested a hill with a friend of mine. We were just out for a walk, looked out O over the landscape and there was like Rosedale Bible college. And he said, and the crazy thing was there were people all over and he said, I saw like cranes and stuff.

[00:17:08] They were building buildings and he’s like looking at, and he said, well, what, what is Rosedale doing? Cuz he’s familiar a little bit with Rosedale. Right. he asked around and, somebody told him they’re discipling people.

[00:17:25] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: He asked that in the dream?

[00:17:27] Jeremy Miller: The dream.

[00:17:27] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Whoa.

[00:17:29] Jeremy Miller: That was the answer he got they’re discipling. And the minute he tells me that I just start weeping.

[00:17:35] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: I’m about to .

[00:17:37] Jeremy Miller: Cause here’s all this fear like, Lord, is this enough? Is this, is this really? What like, did we hear you? Right. And here he had had this friend of mine giving him this vivid dream to affirm the direction we’re headed in.

[00:17:53] Yeah. And I mean that, I was good after that. It’s like, all right, Lord. Okay, this is from you. This is what we’re doing. Good. Done. let’s move.

[00:18:03] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: That’s so cool. Yeah, I actually, I just wrote an article last week, actually just called is faithfulness enough. And the right, the, the, I mean, the idea behind it was really just, I.

[00:18:14] I know it’s supposed to be enough, but like, for me. It doesn’t always feel like it’s enough. Like, it always feels like we need to overthink this thing or like that’s right. Always, it always feels like that’d be sweet if God would do something, but it’d be cooler if he did it from my hand. That’s right.

[00:18:29] It would be cooler if I could put my name on the door that’s right. Or the building or whatever. Yeah. And, um, I guess that kind of segues into the other thing I really wanted. To get into with you. Is that the school? It sounds like it’s mostly donor funded. Is it exclusively donor funded or? Well, I,

[00:18:44] Jeremy Miller: so our students there’s,

[00:18:46] they pay tuition, tuition room and board, all those things.

[00:18:49] Admittedly, it’s far less expensive than most colleges, but that is because it’s donor funded, both churches and individuals invest in what happens here.

[00:18:58] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Right. Okay. So how do you balance. You talked about traveling a lot. Yeah. And you know, just kind of the pressures on that. So just how do you balance that idea of faithfulness being enough?

[00:19:08] Like you gotta travel, you gotta ask for money from churches, you gotta update people on what you’re doing. And like, you gotta stand in front of churches that are donating to you and say, okay, our master plan, right. Disciple people. And you know, like the slow clap in sues or whatever. Like, I don’t know.

[00:19:23] But, so how do you balance that with like, there’s work to be done? There’s things that you have to do. There’s money. You have to ask for. Yeah. but at the same time, like it’s, God’s that’s right. How do you hold that attention?

[00:19:34] Jeremy Miller: That’s it, it is a tension. And I will say, I love sharing the story of Rosedale Bible college.

[00:19:41] I love talking about what we do and right now I think it resonates in a fresh way, all over the country. Yeah. They’re like Christian schools are exploding. I think parents are feeling really ill at ease with a lot of what’s happening, at least many of them in the public school system. And I’m not here to comment on that specifically.

[00:19:59] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Sure.

[00:19:59] Jeremy Miller: But only to say, I think the trend is that parents are very concerned. About the kind of influences that their kids are getting at every level of education. And so I think that actually works in our favor in many cases, but to that end, I love sharing what we do. Right. And so that, to answer your question, that’s a big part of it for me.

[00:20:25] is, uh, sharing, sharing the stories, uh, and sharing what’s happening and, um, and, and how people can be a part of that if they want to. And yet, you know, I, I think often about like George Mueller,

[00:20:42] He Prays

[00:20:44] and then God sends stuff. Yeah. And there’s something ultra appealing about that. And at the same time, I also know people like to know what’s happening.

[00:20:56] Right. And like to know what they’re investing in. Yeah. And so I, I’m not sure Jeff, I am sure that when it becomes my deal and when I’m tempted to treat people in ways that I don’t wanna be treated yeah. To actually get the results that I’m really wanting to. I know then that I’ve crossed lines, right.

[00:21:20] That those are not kingdom values. So

[00:21:22] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: red flags.

[00:21:23] Jeremy Miller: Exactly.

[00:21:24] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Yeah. And know the fruit kind of. what you’re doing basically is the mindset there. I love the approach that you take too, because I talked to a lot of pastors and seen like nonprofit leaders who kind of do the like pulpit pounding thing.

[00:21:38] Like, we, we need your money cuz the roofs leak in or we need your money but you’re not really begging for money. You’re inviting people to participate in what you’re doing. And, and just saying like this story is so cool. I think it’s attractive. Like people want to be a part of it at some point when you position things that way.

[00:21:55] Yeah. because I think there’s a certain I’m hoping that percentage of the population grows, but I think there’s a certain percentage of the church. That’s like, man, if only there were like a solid opportunity to get involved in some kingdom work, I’d love to get behind it.

[00:22:09] and so I think that’s the right framing.

[00:22:12] Jeremy Miller:  I think there’s another piece of it too. I’ll say what I’m gonna say, and then maybe you can help me tie it in, but I have a deep conviction that the church is the vehicle  through which God’s bringing his kingdom on earth.

[00:22:31] And as a pastor, it drove me crazy. When nonprofits or parachurch organizations usurped the role of the church. And one of the things that I have actively sought to do is position Rosedale. Bible college as an organization that serves for the benefit of the church. Right to help the church do what it’s called to do rather than doing it for it.

[00:23:05] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: And in a way, making yourself dependent on the church.

[00:23:09] Jeremy Miller: Exactly. Right. Like we, without church, uh, without church funding, we couldn’t exist. And actually the college is owned by a particular set of churches. Which most colleges have cut those ties. Yeah. Some due to some accreditation demands, but some just so that they have more sort of academic freedom.

[00:23:30] Yeah. Well, the cost to that is that they’re no longer the servant of the church. Yeah. Like they stand. In some cases in opposition to right. Um, rather than serving the church. And I, I do not want that for RBC.

[00:23:48] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: So that does pose an interesting question though, because there’s a certain part of education that is, uh, reformative, right?

[00:23:54] Jeremy Miller: Yes.

[00:23:54] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Like there’s a certain role of that. And I think we kind of talked earlier, I forget if we were online or offline when we were talking about it, but there’s, there’s some reformation that needs done in the church. So, I guess, how do you balance that idea? The fact that, Hey that’s kind of part of our role, but also we need to be held accountable to the institution.

[00:24:13] Jeremy Miller: That’s such a good question. I think a couple of things come to mind the first is that our instructors, our professors, uh, all have led the church or are leading the church. So they’re by vocational in a way.

[00:24:28] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Cool.

[00:24:29] Jeremy Miller: And so they’re ordained ministers. And so one of the ways we feel like we can help the church or, or offer. Our gifts to the church, uh, are by having a voice in church bodies. Yeah. But not like the predominant voice, but yeah, the church comes to us with questions. How do we think about this or how like, And then we respond.

[00:24:55] We offer that right. And the other way that we serve the church intentionally is I take what I hear from our students. Here are the questions they’re wrestling with. These are the things that we need to be addressing in our churches. Right. And we need to be thinking about as church leaders, what, what are we doing with this?

[00:25:16] Because, you know, we serve as a bit of a Canary in the coal mine. Yeah. If our students are, that’s a good point asking these questions. They’re coming right. Or they’re gonna need to be addressed. Right.

[00:25:28] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Right. And it’s not like they’re probably not the, it’s probably not just the Christians asking those questions.

[00:25:32] Jeremy Miller: That’s right. That’s right.

Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: They’re the ones who are willing to wrestle and not just completely throw the baby out in the bath water.

Jeremy Miller: Exactly.

[00:25:43] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.:  So those questions are even, yeah. You know, more, more fierce in the, in the secular area.

That’s really cool. I like that idea. I, I think you’re right about the nonprofit space.

[00:25:48] I work. With nonprofits and know a lot of nonprofits. I think there is a little bit of a, I don’t know, vigilante go rogue kind of mentality with them.

Jeremy Miller: And I despise that.

Jeffrey Lucas Jr.:  And in one sense, I get it, like, in one sense, I get that like, we’re all the church, everybody’s the church, but, but there is another point.

[00:26:09] Of institution being an institution or respect for an institution that I think just speaks to humility. And I, and I think that it’s really easy to just go rogue and be like, well, Jesus was just, you know, 12 guys. So I’m just gonna be 12 guys and forget about the whole institution, but we’re, we’re losing the.

[00:26:27] The humility that it takes to say, you know what, I’m gonna submit to something bigger than myself and, and work within whatever that context is with all of its wart and, and problems and things that we don’t like. Yep. Um, that’s a, that’s an interesting point that actually I’ll have to spend some more time wrestling with and thinking about

[00:26:43] Jeremy Miller: that’s a passion of mine, Jeff, like I think, you know, you, you had commented before we came on the podcast about listening to the rise and fall of Mars hill.

[00:26:50] that’s not an isolated, incident. It is the product of an entire sort of, uh, evangelical world that loves the hero pastor who, who goes it alone and builds something awesome and sees amazing things happen. And, our churches are just full of people and leadership structures that really.

[00:27:24] Aren’t submitted. To anyone other than themselves. And that’s a recipe for an awful lot of problems, and that’s not to say that institutions can’t become corrupted, but what institutional, which most people hate that word. Right. And that whole idea. But what it does do is it keeps individuals from.

[00:27:49] Um, like the institution is bigger than any one person. Right. And it helps establish effective patterns when the institution’s healthy for, for doing good work. Yeah. And yes, institutions can, can become corrupted, but man, if they’re healthy, It is infinitely better than sort of, you know, John Wayne going rogue, getting things done on your own.

[00:28:19] That’s a grass fire just burns through.

[00:28:21] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Well, and I think we’re talking about it on kind of a macro level, but even if you talk about it in a micro level, like I was talking to someone the other day, like, Hey man, where you been? I haven’t seen you at church. Like, oh, you know, style, not my favorite, you know, that kind of thing.

[00:28:32] And I’m like, oh, I see. So you’re confused cuz you think church is about you And we really do see it. I mean, how many people, well, I can’t come to church cuz I have to work or my kid has a soccer game or whatever. And it’s like, okay, so the entire institution needs to revolve around your lifestyle.

[00:28:49] You’re not gonna make any schedule life changes to be involved in the institution. Right. And I think, I mean, that’s really what some of this project is about for me is like, man, all we talk about is how to get ahead, how to get ours, how to get yes. You know, how to get our raises and how to get our money in shape.

[00:29:04] And we’re not really talking. Like, how do we establish the kingdom? And the only way to establish the kingdom is to do it together. Yep. I mean is to do it as, as a body. Yep. Um, and so I just, I don’t know. I love the attitude that you’re taking with that, and that’s honestly, there’s some stuff I’m gonna have to kind of roll around in my head a little bit and maybe write on to kind of.

[00:29:22] To kind of jive on it. But this podcast is for people who are about to take financial or thinking or toying with the idea of taking financial risks. Good for them. Yes. And so you see however many graduates you see every school year we’ve here and embark, hopefully on a life of faithful finances. That’s right.

[00:29:38] So, what do you hope that they know or they understand when they leave here? And I’m gonna assume that that’s like what you would tell my audience as a parting

[00:29:47] thought.

[00:29:48] Jeremy Miller: Yeah. You know without the pressure of sort of a parting thought here.

[00:29:53] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Okay. I’ll

[00:29:54] take it off. You can have two or three if you need ’em.

[00:29:57] Jeremy Miller: Oh, no,

[00:29:58] that’s fine. No, I’m just thinking like, I want our students to be stewards of what God’s given them. That means a willingness to lose yeah. For the sake of the kingdom.

[00:30:13] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Yes. That just hurt my heart,

[00:30:14] Jeremy Miller: you know, you have to be able to say that doing God’s will a actually cost me.

[00:30:26] Cause sometimes it will. And that’s okay. Like you lose everything. You have, you gain great

[00:30:33] reward.

[00:30:34] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: We follow a slain savior. I mean I don’t understand why it’s so hard to remember that. Losing’s okay.When we follow a crucified

[00:30:44] The question is, were we faithful in that process?

[00:30:48] Jeremy Miller: Yeah. And were we like, were we singularly focused at pleasing Jesus mm-hmm and walking with him through. And trusting him that even as you were losing, you were doing the right thing. Yeah. And, and that means that like, we’re not gonna celebrate. a kind of a

Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: aestheticism.

Jeremy Miller: Or irresponsibility.

[00:31:16] Right. You know, where it’s like, oh yeah, just go, go crazy, go do what you want. Blow. You know, there is nothing noble

[00:31:22] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: I’ll come out in the wash kind of thing.

[00:31:24] Jeremy Miller: There’s nothing noble about like, not taking care of your family. Right. It is noble though. If God calls you to something really difficult and in that process, you lose.

[00:31:36] And you say in spite of this, I’m trusting Jesus. Cuz I know it was the right thing to do. Right. And I’m trusting that Jesus will provide cuz he also promised that,

[00:31:46] right?

[00:31:48] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: He didn’t promise Lamborghini, but he did promise the daily bread.

[00:31:50] Jeremy Miller: That’s right. Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. And the contented spirit that says that’s good enough.

[00:31:55] Yeah. But I’m gonna keep working hard. Cause I love Jesus. I love what he’s about. I love what he’s doing here. So that may bring about tremendous wealth that God uses to scatter around. Yeah. It also may bring about poverty for a time. Who knows?

[00:32:12] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: yeah. Yeah. Let me ask you a follow up question on that.

[00:32:15] Yeah. If I can, how do you measure faithfulness?

[00:32:25] how do I know? Yeah. Like how do I know when I look back and I lost? Yeah. How do I know that? Like, yes, I was faithful versus like, dude, I screwed up.

[00:32:35] Jeremy Miller: well, a couple things I think about like the fruit of God’s spirit. Hmm. Were they evident as I was walking and were they evident in the decisions that I was called to make?

[00:32:47] Yeah. So did, did the decision making that happen? Look like God’s spirit.

[00:32:54] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Got it.

[00:32:54] Jeremy Miller: That’d be one and I think also like the promises that God’s given us, have we hung onto those because that’s what the, the great patriarchs and people of faith in scripture yeah. Were rewarded for was like staying faithful, even though they didn’t see the immediate rewards.

[00:33:18] Yeah. Or even the promises that God had promised. Right. But they stayed faithful. And so it’s like does my life and my decision-making look like Jesus, smell like Jesus, is it what he would do? And did I continue to trust God through that?

[00:33:34] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: It’s beautiful. I love that. So well said so hard to do.

[00:33:40] well, Jeremy, man, I really appreciate your help and your, your equipment today.

[00:33:45] Jeremy Miller: that’s great.

[00:33:45] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: And just your insight now, I just got a whole bunch of stuff I gotta roll around in my head. but if people wanna get in contact, find out more about Rosedale Bible college, find out more about you. What’s the best way to do that.

[00:33:55] Jeremy Miller: look us up on the web We love it. We love what God’s given us to do and we’d love to.

[00:34:03] Jeffrey Lucas Jr.: Awesome. Well, Hey man. Thanks. Thanks again. I really appreciate this.

[00:34:06] Jeremy Miller: Thanks for having me, Jeff.